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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 17:56:35 GMT
Honorebu, Ogbeni Ogunnaike, Short_Biscuit, I hear what you guys are saying, but to be honest, it seems to me like there's a heavy dash of rationalizing going on here. Considering how much wealthier the SW is than the SE, and how much longer we've been exposed to western education, the fact that you guys need to go to such lengths to explain away any supposed lag we're suffering with the SE actually says a lot, as there is no good reason why the numbers should even be close in the first place! It's not as if our educational institutions are on par with world leaders like South Korea or Singapore, making it unreasonable to expect them to be better or something. Frankly, I am 100% convinced we have a serious educational problem in the SW, no matter what proof is brought forward for cheating in the SE. We ought to be shooting for a system high enough in quality to produce teams that can regularly score in the top 10 in competitions like the International Math Olympiad, not patting ourselves on the back for recording a 29% JAMB pass rate where the SE managed 28% - that is just settling for mediocrity.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 17:59:21 GMT
Let me just say - assuming he follows through, this is the first (and very possibly the last) time in history that I will be on record as praising Fayose for actually doing something positive in his role as a governor.
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 18:11:15 GMT
Honorebu , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Short_Biscuit , I hear what you guys are saying, but to be honest, it seems to me like there's a heavy dash of rationalizing going on here. Considering how much wealthier the SW is than the SE, and how much longer we've been exposed to western education, the fact that you guys need to go to such lengths to explain away any supposed lag we're suffering with the SE actually says a lot, as there is no good reason why the numbers should even be close in the first place! It's not as if our educational institutions are on par with world leaders like South Korea or Singapore, making it unreasonable to expect them to be better or something. Frankly, I am 100% convinced we have a serious educational problem in the SW, no matter what proof is brought forward for cheating in the SE. We ought to be shooting for a system high enough in quality to produce teams that can regularly score in the top 10 in competitions like the International Math Olympiad, not patting ourselves on the back for recording a 29% JAMB pass rate where the SE managed 28% - that is just settling for mediocrity. Definitely, we can do better. But bros, this argument dates back to even the 50s and the 60s. They produced the first VCs of both UniIbadan and UniLag, and even claimed to have closed the educational 'gap' between us even as at then, did that make them better than us, I don't believe so. But these are very very competitive people we're talking about here, and they aren't slouches either. Yet we're still doing better than them (even if not by a wide margin, and in spite of the constraints of the Nigerian system). The Nigerian situation is not helping matters and is actually holding us back as a people. Our region NEEDS to have a measure of autonomy to put in place the sort of educational reforms that would give us the kind of results aim at. Personally, I've not been particularly happy with our WAEC performance of late, but I don't see things changing anytime soon unless the system is revamped.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 18:26:22 GMT
Honorebu , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Short_Biscuit , I hear what you guys are saying, but to be honest, it seems to me like there's a heavy dash of rationalizing going on here. Considering how much wealthier the SW is than the SE, and how much longer we've been exposed to western education, the fact that you guys need to go to such lengths to explain away any supposed lag we're suffering with the SE actually says a lot, as there is no good reason why the numbers should even be close in the first place! It's not as if our educational institutions are on par with world leaders like South Korea or Singapore, making it unreasonable to expect them to be better or something. Frankly, I am 100% convinced we have a serious educational problem in the SW, no matter what proof is brought forward for cheating in the SE. We ought to be shooting for a system high enough in quality to produce teams that can regularly score in the top 10 in competitions like the International Math Olympiad, not patting ourselves on the back for recording a 29% JAMB pass rate where the SE managed 28% - that is just settling for mediocrity. Definitely, we can do better. But bros, this argument dates back to even the 50s and the 60s. They produced the first VCs of both UniIbadan and UniLag, and even claimed to have closed the educational 'gap' between us even as at then, did that make them better than us, I don't believe so. But these are very very competitive people we're talking about here, and they aren't slouches either. Yet we're still doing better than them (even if not by a wide margin, and in spite of the constraints of the Nigerian system). The Nigerian situation is not helping matters and is actually holding us back as a people. Our region NEEDS to have a measure of autonomy to put in place the sort of educational reforms that would give us the kind of results aim at. Personally, I've not been particularly happy with our WAEC performance of late, but I don't see things changing anytime soon unless the system is revamped. But even with the current restrictions on our autonomy, nothing stops other states from following the lead of Lagos and Ekiti by handing back the missionary schools to their founders, nothing stops them from introducing voucher-based school choice schemes (I'm sure international aid bodies like the Gates Foundation and the World Bank would even be willing to help here), and nothing stops any of the SW governors from pushing through the sorts of teacher certification measures Fayemi tried and failed to get passed - nothing, that is, apart from a lack of political will, due to the fear of a backlash from groups like the NUT. We can blame the FG for a great many sins, but on this issue of a poor public educational system, most of the fault lies at home with our governors and the low expectations our electorates have come to have of them. This is what comes of concentrating too much on which region in a state is "marginalized" and therefore must produce the next governor, instead of focusing on questions of policy and implementation records.
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 18:37:52 GMT
Definitely, we can do better. But bros, this argument dates back to even the 50s and the 60s. They produced the first VCs of both UniIbadan and UniLag, and even claimed to have closed the educational 'gap' between us even as at then, did that make them better than us, I don't believe so. But these are very very competitive people we're talking about here, and they aren't slouches either. Yet we're still doing better than them (even if not by a wide margin, and in spite of the constraints of the Nigerian system). The Nigerian situation is not helping matters and is actually holding us back as a people. Our region NEEDS to have a measure of autonomy to put in place the sort of educational reforms that would give us the kind of results aim at. Personally, I've not been particularly happy with our WAEC performance of late, but I don't see things changing anytime soon unless the system is revamped. But even with the current restrictions on our autonomy, nothing stops other states from following the lead of Lagos and Ekiti by handing back the missionary schools to their founders, nothing stops them from introducing voucher-based school choice schemes (I'm sure international aid bodies like the Gates Foundation and the World Bank would even be willing to help here), and nothing stops any of the SW governors from pushing through the sorts of teacher certification measures Fayemi tried and failed to get passed - nothing, that is, apart from a lack of political will, due to the fear of a backlash from groups like the NUT. We can blame the FG for a great many sins, but on this issue of a poor public educational system, most of the fault lies at home with our governors and the low expectations our electorates have come to have of them. This is what comes of concentrating too much on which region in a state is "marginalized" and therefore must produce the next governor, instead of focusing on questions of policy and implementation records. On this I will agree with you. Our people generally need to some serious reorientation about many things, and education is one of them. You are right about the lack of political will on the part of our governors as this will also go a long way in improving the situation. But let's not also dismiss or underplay the malpractice angle of these people coz the evidences are too much to ignore. If they can't play fair, bros, they'll keep having an unfair advantage and that's the truth. Both the first U.I and UniLag VCs were the products of political influence, even when we had our own qualified folks who could have manned the same positions. And ever since that aberration was corrected, both schools have largely been well managed by our people (atleast by Nigerian standards) and are by far better rated than any SE school. I think we need to get out of the Nigeria and raise our standards, so that we can quit comparing ourselves or competing with them, and instead focus on international standards. We definitely need to raise our standards. That's my opinion.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 18:55:09 GMT
But even with the current restrictions on our autonomy, nothing stops other states from following the lead of Lagos and Ekiti by handing back the missionary schools to their founders, nothing stops them from introducing voucher-based school choice schemes (I'm sure international aid bodies like the Gates Foundation and the World Bank would even be willing to help here), and nothing stops any of the SW governors from pushing through the sorts of teacher certification measures Fayemi tried and failed to get passed - nothing, that is, apart from a lack of political will, due to the fear of a backlash from groups like the NUT. We can blame the FG for a great many sins, but on this issue of a poor public educational system, most of the fault lies at home with our governors and the low expectations our electorates have come to have of them. This is what comes of concentrating too much on which region in a state is "marginalized" and therefore must produce the next governor, instead of focusing on questions of policy and implementation records. On this I will agree with you. Our people generally need to some serious reorientation about many things, and education is one of them. You are right about the lack of political will on the part of our governors as this will also go a long way in improving the situation. But let's not also dismiss or underplay the malpractice angle of these people coz the evidences are too much to ignore. If they can't play fair, bros, they'll keep having an unfair advantage and that's the truth. Both the first U.I and UniLag VCs were the products of political influence, even when we had our own qualified folks who could have manned the same positions. And ever since that aberration was corrected, both schools have largely been well managed by our people (atleast by Nigerian standards) and are by far better rated than any SE school. I think we need to get out of the Nigeria and raise our standards, so that we can quit comparing ourselves or competing with them, and instead focus on international standards. We definitely need to raise our standards. That's my opinion. The thing about cheating and education is that those who cheat are ultimately cheating themselves: the bill will come through in full when the time comes to apply the knowledge and skills they faked having. That malpractice is widespread in certain regions doesn't mean we can afford to sit back and wait until Nigeria breaks up before taking drastic action, as by then it will be too late: when industrialization takes off, we won't be able to go back and make up for the substandard educations we allowed older generations to go through. This is why I think it's such a mistake to focus on just being on par with the Igbos or slightly better, after adjusting for whatever malpractices they may or may not be committing. Really, if we know what we're doing, it should be easy for us to beat them with honest results even with massive fraud on their part, as we have the superior financial resources, whether measured by estimated GDP per capita or by IGR. I would rather that we be driven by fear to up our game through drastic measures, than we continue to give ourselves any number of plausible reasons to be comfortable with the status quo.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 20:59:04 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
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Post by Honorebu on Jul 25, 2017 21:30:50 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
I thought we all agreed with the emboldened? Cheating or no cheating, they are ahead of us if we want to be honest with ourselves. We won't make much progress until we admit there is a serious issue
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 22:01:59 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
Bros, I get where you are coming from, but I still am not convinced. Our standards have fallen, but I don't see a situation, under the current arrangement, where Yorubas would have the kind of domination we're talking about within the Nigerian context. Besides, I think overall Yorubas aren't doing too badly compared to the SE/SS in National Mathematics competitions like the popular Cowbell Mathematics Competitions, as the screenshot of recent results show. Without a doubt, we are doing poorly, but then its relative. I don't think there's enough complete data to conclude just yet, even though our standards have definitely fallen. Besides, the Nigerian that won bronze at the 42nd edition of the International Physics Olympiad in faraway Thailand some years ago was Yoruba. Atleast one of them won a bronze medal for the country. And that team was populated by 3 Yorubas out of the 5 contestants representing Nigeria -- these teams usually have 5 representatives from each country.
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 22:07:24 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
I thought we all agreed with the emboldened? Cheating or no cheating, they are ahead of us if we want to be honest with ourselves. We won't make much progress until we admit there is a serious issue Forget it bros. Yorubas will not attain the level of educational dominance that we seem to be suggesting within Nigeria. It will simply not happen. Besides, why lump SS/SE against just the SW alone? These people too aren't slouches you know, and we need to bear this in mind.
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Post by Honorebu on Jul 25, 2017 22:07:57 GMT
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Post by Honorebu on Jul 25, 2017 22:09:33 GMT
I thought we all agreed with the emboldened? Cheating or no cheating, they are ahead of us if we want to be honest with ourselves. We won't make much progress until we admit there is a serious issue Forget it bros. Yorubas will not attain the level of educational dominance that we seem to be suggesting within Nigeria. It will simply not happen. Besides, why lump SS/SE against just the SW alone? These people too aren't slouches you know, and we need to bear this in mind. B Hmm..but we used to heavily dominate within this same Nigeria until recently. So what changed?
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 22:15:54 GMT
Bros, I get where you are coming from, but I still am not convinced. Our standards have fallen, but I don't see a situation, under the current arrangement, where Yorubas would have the kind of domination we're talking about within the Nigerian context. Really? Even with our superior financial resources, and the freedom we already have to carry out the sorts of measures I've suggested earlier? It's hardly as if the SE is an educational power to be reckoned with on a global level either - the best Nigerian performance is so low that it ought to be very, very easy to do far, far better. Claiming otherwise is an argument for complacency. Again, this is simply being complacent. With 2/3 of Nigeria's entire non-oil economy in our region, we should really be crushing the other regions in such competitions if we had our educational house even half in order. We have become so accustomed to (pardon my English) having shit shoveled down our throats in Nigeria that we don't even recognize how much better things could be if we seriously tried: to see how students in places like Finland, Japan and South Korea are taught (and even in poor countries like Vietnam and the Philippines) is to realize that even the best Nigerian schools (e.g. the FG unity schools, AFMS or NMS) are a joke by comparison to the average local school in such places. This is not just about money, either, but about the quality of the teachers employed, and the expectations they have of their students. I just don't see any basis for going along with your view that we're somehow doing less than awfully.
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 22:17:54 GMT
I don't have an explanation. But as far as I know, 5 representatives are selected to represent each country at the Olympiad. I do not know the selection criteria but it's obvious that more Igbos were picked to represent Nigeria going by the result the egbon presented (there were atleast 3 Igbos on there, and I think only one Yoruba). But that one result right there, to my mind, is not enough to judge that Igbos are better Mathematicians. I'm definitely willing to shift my position in the face of more concrete evidence.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 22:21:05 GMT
I thought we all agreed with the emboldened? Cheating or no cheating, they are ahead of us if we want to be honest with ourselves. We won't make much progress until we admit there is a serious issue Forget it bros. Yorubas will not attain the level of educational dominance that we seem to be suggesting within Nigeria. It will simply not happen. Besides, why lump SS/SE against just the SW alone? These people too aren't slouches you know, and we need to bear this in mind. But that's the thing, they are in fact slouches, when we look at things on a broader scale than the Nigerian context of all round mediocrity: the educational performance of the SE is actually nothing to be proud of when scrutinized at the level of other poor countries like Bosnia, the Philippines or Vietnam. The only reason we don't see this straightaway is that we forget to look outside of Nigerian ethnic rivalries, so we and the Igbos can congratulate ourselves because we think we're ahead of each other, even though that still leaves us close the bottom of the heap internationally.
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