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Post by omohayek on Jul 25, 2017 22:24:22 GMT
I don't have an explanation. But as far as I know, 5 representatives are selected to represent each country at the Olympiad. I do not know the selection criteria but it's obvious that more Igbos were picked to represent Nigeria going by the result the egbon presented ( there were atleast 3 Igbos on there, and I think only one Yoruba). But that one result right there, to my mind, is not enough to judge that Igbos are better Mathematicians. I'm definitely willing to shift my position in the face of more concrete evidence. The Yoruba guy didn't even manage to score any points, and you forget to mention that the 4th Nigerian to score points was also obviously from the SS/SE region, even if he wasn't Igbo. As an indicator of mathematical ability, I will take the IMO over the Cowbell or any other local Nigerian competition any day - it has historically been an excellent predictor of which students will go on to become superstar mathematicians.
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Post by Short_Biscuit on Jul 25, 2017 22:43:19 GMT
Bros, I get where you are coming from, but I still am not convinced. Our standards have fallen, but I don't see a situation, under the current arrangement, where Yorubas would have the kind of domination we're talking about within the Nigerian context. Really? Even with our superior financial resources, and the freedom we already have to carry out the sorts of measures I've suggested earlier? It's hardly as if the SE is an educational power to be reckoned with on a global level either - the best Nigerian performance is so low that it ought to be very, very easy to do far, far better. Claiming otherwise is an argument for complacency. Again, this is simply being complacent. With 2/3 of Nigeria's entire non-oil economy in our region, we should really be crushing the other regions in such competitions if we had our educational house even half in order. We have become so accustomed to (pardon my English) having shit shoveled down our throats in Nigeria that we don't even recognize how much better things could be if we seriously tried: to see how students in places like Finland, Japan and South Korea are taught (and even in poor countries like Vietnam and the Philippines) is to realize that even the best Nigerian schools (e.g. the FG unity schools, AFMS or NMS) are a joke by comparison to the average local school in such places. This is not just about money, either, but about the quality of the teachers employed, and the expectations they have of their students. I just don't see any basis for going along with your view that we're somehow doing less than awfully. Bros, I don't think we're as well-off as you're thinking o. Honestly. I think the problem is multi-faceted -- part of it has to do with our fallen standards and eroding values, amongst others. Let's even forget about competing with Igbos/SS for a minute. If I were to diagnose what's wrong with our education system, I'll say our public education system is grossly under-funded. Public schools are nothing to write home about. The teachers are not well-trained/qualified, and the well-trained ones are not well remunerated and therefore lack motivation. It's systemic. How much is budgeted toward education by the SW states? How much would be enough? Where will the money come from under the current system? Even the SE/SS we're comparing ourselves to aren't doing better either, inspite of all their oil money. That non-oil economy advantage you speak of isn't that impressively really, IMO and by international standards that. How much revenue do we really generate within our regional? Our economy is still very underdeveloped. Our states are practically bankrupt, with no dependable source of revenue outside Oil revenue and taxation (even Lagos sef with its crazy population is still having to manage a paltry billion dollar budget). I am not saying we are not awful. But I don't want to view the problem in isolation. I feel its symptomatic of a larger problem. Even the Igbos that we like to compare ourselves with, how better off are they in spite of this supposed edge they have over us educationally (vocational and otherwise)? Is this translating into more entrepreneurship prowess than our people? Are they getting admitted into better Universities than us? Are they producing better and more proficient mathematicians?
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Post by Honorebu on Jul 25, 2017 23:03:32 GMT
Short_Biscuit , omohayek , lol this argument is probably not going to end. We can leave the SE vs SW argument for another day. Both regions are performing poorly. It's like a case of two homeless people. One has a mattress, the other one has a mat. I still think they are the ones with mattress But like we've all admitted, the SW has serious issues wtr education. Let's just hope these govs do something drastic about it. We for here no kuku get power
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Post by Ogbeni Ogunnaike on Jul 26, 2017 0:02:16 GMT
I don't want to be seen as making excuses for yorubas, but in a clarity, Covenant university is owned y Yorubas but is not a "Yoruba institution" because there is an equal chance for admission to everyone that applies from anywhere in the country, as long as you have your money and whatever requirement it is that they use. It is a private christian university campus belonging to a church like Winners that though is popular in the west is also quite popular in other parts of the country, most especially the east and south. Secondly, majority of the Yorubas there enrolled are christians, don't forget that. Probably to the tune of 95% of the Yorubas in that school will be christian, what that means is that we are only represented at a 50% strength in that school. I don't want to believe that the islamic segment of our population is underperforming , or significantly less into education as the Christians are, until something substantive and defining shows me beyond reasonable doubt. cc@Owoblow, what do you think? I am inclined to agree with your position, considering the important perspective you touched on about Covenant University being a Christian-leaning University. Oyedepo is an unapologetic Islamophobe, and is actually on record for having denied Muslim Yoruba students admission into his University -- the following episode is an instructive case in point: www.nairaland.com/771573/muslim-students-denied-admission-oyedepos . Therefore the institution under-represents a huge segment of the Yoruba society (Yoruba muslims) and can't be a credible enough Yardstick for measuring a decline in Yoruba students academic excellence relative to their Igbo counterparts, even if such actually exists. His (Oyedepo's) blatant policy of excluding Yoruba Muslims (who constitute close to half of Yoruba population in Nigeria) who are willing to give their wards a quality education without compromising their religious beliefs, is partly responsible for the increasing popularity of Yoruba-muslims established Universities like Crescent Uni, Fountain Uni, Al-Hikmah Uni and their likes among the Yoruba muslim community. Since Covenant University is an 'equal opportunity' institution for professing christians, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Igbo (who are predominantly christians) and other professing christians across Nigeria would be competing with just a fraction of Yorubas at the institution. I am still yet to be convinced that Igbos are producing better students than Yorubas for several reasons, in spite of recent media reports suggesting such a trend. Igbos are known to have a 'win/succeed-at-all-cost' competitive mentality that is evident in every facet of their society. I'm not saying Yorubas are relatively 'saints', no. But we generally don't share their level of desperation in this regard and in our worldview. This becomes an important factor when we consider the amount of cases of exam malpractise emanating from their region compared to other regions. When I look at the number of students from Imo that apply for Jamb (upwards of at least a 100,000) for instance, compared to the actual admission rates (24%), I'm certainly not convinced of anything special about their academic performance. One can observe a similar pattern in the admission rates across their region, compared to the SW. A breakdown of the data (below) shows that they actually have more of their wards applying for these exams in some instances, but their admission rates are lower compared to the SWerners, and overall, we still have more students getting ADMITTED than they do. Credit: YonkijiSappo When I read about 486 WAEC/NECO magic centres being shut down in Anambra (http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/07/anambra-close-486-centres-exam-magic/ ), or about Abia and the SE leading in the number of incidences of exam malpractice during the last JAMB CBT Exams, I see a consistent pattern of behaviour that discredits any argument of their being better academic achievers relative to our students. I'm just not convinced, and this is me being objective. They are ambitious quite alright, but can be very crooked/dishonest in their methods of achieving results in order to gain an advantage over others -- and history supports this. dailypost.ng/2017/06/20/reuben-abati-jamb-2017-matters-arising/Cc: Honorebu , omohayek , omoolowu lol, I am Yonkijisappo... Yeah the admission rates in the SW are higher although the reason for that is not conclusive (yet). Ebonyi is also given special treatment by adding a few extra percentage points to their admission rate, as they are designated an EDS.
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Post by Ogbeni Ogunnaike on Jul 26, 2017 0:16:18 GMT
Honorebu , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Short_Biscuit , I hear what you guys are saying, but to be honest, it seems to me like there's a heavy dash of rationalizing going on here. Considering how much wealthier the SW is than the SE, and how much longer we've been exposed to western education, the fact that you guys need to go to such lengths to explain away any supposed lag we're suffering with the SE actually says a lot, as there is no good reason why the numbers should even be close in the first place! It's not as if our educational institutions are on par with world leaders like South Korea or Singapore, making it unreasonable to expect them to be better or something. Frankly, I am 100% convinced we have a serious educational problem in the SW, no matter what proof is brought forward for cheating in the SE. We ought to be shooting for a system high enough in quality to produce teams that can regularly score in the top 10 in competitions like the International Math Olympiad, not patting ourselves on the back for recording a 29% JAMB pass rate where the SE managed 28% - that is just settling for mediocrity. lol, things like International maths olympiad and the likes are just prestige/bragging events, and have nothing to do with the ultimate state of education in the countries involved. Loook at Luxembourg waaay down below in the list, ranking below even Nigeria. Is the Nigerian educational system better placed than the Cuban educational system where literacy is at close to 100% and school attendance is universal? Chosing a select few students and preping them for an international competition is not a measure of educational prowess. That being said, I think what Myself and Short_Biscuit said earlier actually does make a lot of sense. The convenant university list being complained about is still dominated by Yorubas even with all the religious restrictions. We would need to check similar lists from other private universities to make such a conclusion. To your othe rpoints yes, Yorubas were exposed to education earlier, but it cought up much faster among the christian populace than the muslims, most of these original schools established in the west were mission schools, and the christians embraced education at higher rates. That is why till tofay even among the Yorubas, the Ondos, Ekitis and Ijeshas are particularly noted for being very learned. It came later to the Igbo but acceptance was universal, hence educational achievement rates in the SW and SE have always been not too far off one another since like the 1990s even though the Yorubas had a clear headstart. Do you know some Yorubas still prefer reading Kewu and attending Quraanic schols to attending secondary school?
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Post by Ogbeni Ogunnaike on Jul 26, 2017 0:39:06 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
All 4 of these students are from Loyola jesuit schools in Abuja and Lagos. This is no measure imo. I think it says more about the success of that school and not of tribes. I think the school have their way of going about it. All four of them were also locally represented nationally in the Cowbell mathematics competition where they were almost all bested by Yorubas.
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Post by Ogbeni Ogunnaike on Jul 26, 2017 0:41:20 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
Bros, I get where you are coming from, but I still am not convinced. Our standards have fallen, but I don't see a situation, under the current arrangement, where Yorubas would have the kind of domination we're talking about within the Nigerian context. Besides, I think overall Yorubas aren't doing too badly compared to the SE/SS in National Mathematics competitions like the popular Cowbell Mathematics Competitions, as the screenshot of recent results show. Without a doubt, we are doing poorly, but then its relative. I don't think there's enough complete data to conclude just yet, even though our standards have definitely fallen. Besides, the Nigerian that won bronze at the 42nd edition of the International Physics Olympiad in faraway Thailand some years ago was Yoruba. Atleast one of them won a bronze medal for the country. And that team was populated by 3 Yorubas out of the 5 contestants representing Nigeria -- these teams usually have 5 representatives from each country. Exactly.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 26, 2017 6:14:57 GMT
Honorebu , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Short_Biscuit , I hear what you guys are saying, but to be honest, it seems to me like there's a heavy dash of rationalizing going on here. Considering how much wealthier the SW is than the SE, and how much longer we've been exposed to western education, the fact that you guys need to go to such lengths to explain away any supposed lag we're suffering with the SE actually says a lot, as there is no good reason why the numbers should even be close in the first place! It's not as if our educational institutions are on par with world leaders like South Korea or Singapore, making it unreasonable to expect them to be better or something. Frankly, I am 100% convinced we have a serious educational problem in the SW, no matter what proof is brought forward for cheating in the SE. We ought to be shooting for a system high enough in quality to produce teams that can regularly score in the top 10 in competitions like the International Math Olympiad, not patting ourselves on the back for recording a 29% JAMB pass rate where the SE managed 28% - that is just settling for mediocrity. lol, things like International maths olympiad and the likes are just prestige/bragging events, and have nothing to do with the ultimate state of education in the countries involved. Loook at Luxembourg waaay down below in the list, ranking below even Nigeria. I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Adjust for population size and the trend is crystal clear: better performance on competitions like the IMO is very strongly correlated with performance on the OECD's Pisa rankings. That a nation of 180 million should do better than a microstate with just 582,972 people is nothing to brag about, especially considering how much older Luxembourg's population is, meaning it has far fewer children even adjusting for population. Then why is Saudi Arabia doing so much better than any African country on competitions like this, despite being 99.9% Muslim? Why are northern states like Kaduna already outdoing Osun and Oyo? The religious explanation might have held water in the colonial era when most schools in the south were run by missionaries, but it doesn't explain today's lagging performance in the SW. We have an educational crisis on our hands, and to fix it we need to be able to face the problem head on, instead of giving ourselves rationalizations for pretending the problem doesn't exist.
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Post by omohayek on Jul 26, 2017 6:22:34 GMT
Short_Biscuit , Ogbeni Ogunnaike , Honorebu By the way, have any of you guys actually gone to the International Math Olympiad page I linked to, and clicked through to Nigeria's results? The team's performance wasn't great by any means (87th place, very close to the bottom and worse than Saudi Arabia or Turkmenistan), but what do you notice about the names of all the contestants who actually scored enough to be worth mentioning? I don't see how this can be explained away as being due to cheating or miracle centers, as the IMO solutions aren't handed out to local examiners, while the problems are too hard to solve for even the average university mathematics degree holder. I really think it's time we started facing facts about where the SW now lies in terms of educational performance. These IMO results illustrate the two things I've been driving at, namely - That Nigeria's educational system is in shambles in all regions, with plenty of room for dramatic improvement.
- The superior SE/SS performance gap is at least partly real, and can't all simply be dismissed as cheating.
All 4 of these students are from Loyola jesuit schools in Abuja and Lagos. This is no measure imo. I think it says more about the success of that school and not of tribes. I think the school have their way of going about it. All four of them were also locally represented nationally in the Cowbell mathematics competition where they were almost all bested by Yorubas. This is a confusing argument, as it ignores the central point I'm making, which is not that Igbos are genetic supermen, but that schools in the SE are doing at least a marginally better job than those in the SW. Pointing to the superior performance of students from Catholic schools run by missionaries doesn't exactly undercut the point I'm trying to make. What part of the country has the highest percentage of Catholics, and what part has handed back to the Catholic church more of its missionary schools? As for your assertion that these 4 students were bested by Yoruba students in the Cowbell, one has to wonder why those Yoruba students didn't end up representing Nigeria in the IMO. Have you considered that the IMO tests mathematical ability of a higher order than the Cowbell? Mathematics isn't really about the kinds of numerical manipulations one sees on game shows. Try some of the IMO problems for yourself and see how far you get with a single one - my bet is that your Cowbell winners could crunch numbers all day, but didn't have a clue when faced with having to actually think conceptually about what they were doing, or to put it plainly, these kids were chosen because they were the best, whether or not they were from the SE/SS.
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Post by Ogbeni Ogunnaike on Jul 26, 2017 6:45:07 GMT
lol, things like International maths olympiad and the likes are just prestige/bragging events, and have nothing to do with the ultimate state of education in the countries involved. Loook at Luxembourg waaay down below in the list, ranking below even Nigeria. I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Adjust for population size and the trend is crystal clear: better performance on competitions like the IMO is very strongly correlated with performance on the OECD's Pisa rankings. That a nation of 180 million should do better than a microstate with just 582,972 people is nothing to brag about, especially considering how much older Luxembourg's population is, meaning it has far fewer children even adjusting for population. Then why is Saudi Arabia doing so much better than any African country on competitions like this, despite being 99.9% Muslim? Why are northern states like Kaduna already outdoing Osun and Oyo? The religious explanation might have held water in the colonial era when most schools in the south were run by missionaries, but it doesn't explain today's lagging performance in the SW. We have an educational crisis on our hands, and to fix it we need to be able to face the problem head on, instead of giving ourselves rationalizations for pretending the problem doesn't exist. I didn't cite religion as an excuse for low performance, I used it to show that the Igbos were never very much behind Yorubas Educationally.i.e not all sections of our population embraced the early advantage we purportedly had 100%. It has always been somewhat close. Even those that were conscious through the 60s through the 90s will tell you that Lagos, Bendel (Edo/Delta) and Imo were the states that used to lead WAEC performances. And that was like way back then.
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Post by Mr-Maestro on Jul 26, 2017 19:35:34 GMT
I see a lot of conversation but not much action. If you are one of those that believe our schools are underperforming, reach out to those in charge, and spam their emails with all of the information that you're posting here and hope they use them. Send them to officials as high up as possible and to the governor as well! If they don't read it, those around them who have more power than we do can possible influence the situation in one way or another. But just don't sit here doing NOTHING. This is what I don't like about how complacent Yorubas have become. We can think and analyze, but we rarely put things into action with conviction these days. Maybe the igbos got to this position due to ACTION by the people.
If someone can come up with an adequate list of officials with significant influence in the education sector, along with their email information (or Twitter account), I will PERSONALLY vow to send at least 3 emails each week to all of them at least for the next weeks. Is anyone else willing to actually DO SOMETHING about the situation?
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Post by Honorebu on Jul 27, 2017 0:54:21 GMT
I see a lot of conversation but not much action. If you are one of those that believe our schools are underperforming, reach out to those in charge, and spam their emails with all of the information that you're posting here and hope they use them. Send them to officials as high up as possible and to the governor as well! If they don't read it, those around them who have more power than we do can possible influence the situation in one way or another. But just don't sit here doing NOTHING. This is what I don't like about how complacent Yorubas have become. We can think and analyze, but we rarely put things into action with conviction these days. Maybe the igbos got to this position due to ACTION by the people. If someone can come up with an adequate list of officials with significant influence in the education sector, along with their email information (or Twitter account), I will PERSONALLY vow to send at least 3 emails each week to all of them at least for the next weeks. Is anyone else willing to actually DO SOMETHING about the situation? Breh, we've sent emails in the past. Olukumi sent emails before he became inactive. It's beyond sending emails. I also sent emails. AgbongboAkala sent emails. It's there on the Regional thread where we discussed about our falling education standards Besides, these guys don't even read all these things cos they think they have better things to worry about it than listening to advice from random people. They have special advisers on education after all
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Post by Mr-Maestro on Jul 27, 2017 5:20:20 GMT
So we keep trying. That's how it works in developed countries. Lobbying takes years and multiple efforts before it is effective. There's no place on Earth where 1 2 or 3 emails will get a politician to do something. We need a massive spam attack. We can't remain complacent. If at least 2 people can commit to send emails to the same individuals at the same time on the same day for at least 3 times a week for a month, they would have no voice but to realize people have organised themselves on this issue and something needs to be done.
Where have those individuals you mentioned sent emails to? Can you point me to the thread? I want to send some as well.
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Post by Mr-Maestro on Jul 27, 2017 5:32:21 GMT
And doing that won't be that hard. Once you send me the individuals you and the others have sent emails to, I'll come up with a draft and a schedule for the next month on what days and what times I will be sending the emails and I'll post it here. I urge you (and all others reading this thread) to join me as well in that schedule by saving a draft of their own version of an email and resending it consistently to the same individuals at the scheduled time and days that I'll post here.
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Post by Mr-Maestro on Jul 27, 2017 5:32:49 GMT
And doing that won't be that hard. Once you send me the individuals you and the others have sent emails to, I'll come up with a draft and a schedule for the next month on what days and what times I will be sending the emails and I'll post it here. I urge you (and all others reading this thread) to join me as well in that schedule by saving a draft of their own version of an email and resending it consistently to the same individuals at the scheduled time and days that I'll post here.
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